Mountain Biking Oakridge Oregon With The Shredding Shorties

One of my favorite parts about Bend, Oregon is its incredible community of hardcore ladies who mountain bike.  I was fortunate to bond with a few of these amazing gals at a mountain bike clinic last year, and since then, we've torn up the local trails ever since.  Even though Bend is a mountain biking destination in and of itself, we wanted to cross the mountains to check out the misty cool jungle-like trails in Oakridge.

So five of us loaded ourselves into a gigantor truck and my Honda Fit to invade the sleepy town of Oakridge for a weekend of mountain biking.  We nicknamed ourselves the Shredding Shorties because we all stand between 5'2" and 5'4" and make for a hilarious posse when tromping into bike shops.  After consulting with the friendly folks at the local bike shop, we decided to set up our own shuttles to the top of Dead Mountain (aka the ineptly named Flat Creek Trail) and the iconic Alpine Trail.  These two rides provided us stunning views, sweet fast flowy descents, and just enough challenging sections to keep things interesting.

View from the top of the Dead Mountain!  Ask a local for intel on how to find the viewpoint, lest you miss the short hike to this nearly 360 degree view of the area.

First views from the Alpine Trail... gorgeous exposed ridgelines!

The Shredding Shorties take a minute to enjoy the views.

Back to work!

Yours truly coming tearing down... or rolling sorta fast down.

After 5000+ feet of descent and 2000+ feet of climbing over 15.4 miles, we had huge grins on our faces as we zoomed off the trail.  The ride was perfect in every way, including the blackberries at the bottom.  We stopped for 15 minutes to stuff our faces full of perfectly ripe blackberries before heading back to Bend.

Mmmm free blackberries.

The whole Shredding Shorties crew celebrating a great ride before we headed back to Bend.

Post-Trip Ramblings: The Idaho Hot Springs Tour Edition

We woke up obscenely early most likely because we passed out early the night before from our afternoon of drinking at the Dirty Shame.  Ryan had a 6 hour drive back to Bend, but I decided to take my time in the morning to have coffee and breakfast over at Wild Bill's and then head north via Hells Canyon to my parents' house in Tri-Cities.  It felt good to come full circle since we started our tour at Wild Bill's.  A bunch of wildfire fire fighters were there having breakfast... turns out there was a fire on Highway 55 south of Crouch, which is the primary way to get from Boise to this area and a bunch of people got stuck trying to go home.  As I waited for my food, I saw that the 100+ degree weather was supposed to continue for the next week, and although I was sad that the tour had been cut a few days short, it was a silver lining knowing that I wouldn't have to bike in that weather.  Since I had some extra time, I decided to make a stop at Palouse Falls State Park on the way.  It was blazing hot so I only explored for a very short period of time, but it was worth it!

Scenic views of Hells Canyon recreation area.

Nez Perce national wilderness area... I recalled the old stories of the Nez Perce as I marveled at the stark landscape.

Stunning and unexpected in the middle of southeastern Washington state.

Views down the canyon.

I stalked this momma and her not-so-little offspring for a bit before leaving.

In no particular order, there are some things I think are important to know for anyone who is planning on doing this tour this year or in the future:

• Bring a bathing suit for the hot springs and rivers.  While many hot springs in Oregon are clothing optional, many hot springs in Idaho are bathing suit mandatory.  I did not see a single nude person at the hot springs, though I may or may not have skinny dipped in a river or two.

• Ryan severely underestimated his cycling fitness for this tour despite the fact that he (a) mountain bikes on occasion and (b) has done lengthy bike tours before.  It wasn't that he was unable to do this tour, but he really struggled on the climbs.  Rule #1 in Zombieland?  Cardio.  We saw some other folks on the road who had no idea what they were getting themselves into and looked pretty miserable on the road.

• Although I understand that it was about 10-15 degrees hotter than normal, the weather in this part of Idaho is extremely variable, but it is mostly hot.  Really really really hot.  If you idealize this tour as partaking in all the hot springs, you are sorely mistaken.  The rivers, though, are also awesome.

• We really struggled with knowing when and where water sources would present themselves.  While most of the campgrounds identified on the ACA maps had pumps, not all of the did.  When we had wifi or cell phone access, we tried to research which campgrounds had pumps so we could plan accordingly.   It was also hard to decipher on the map whether or not we would be able to access the river to filter water (bring a reliable water filter... my personal favorite because it is so lightweight is the mini Sawyer).  While much of this route follows rivers, sometimes there are 20 foot steep banks (cliffs, really) which would make it impossible to get to the water.  I hope in future editions that the water sources are marked -- one icon for a pump or spigot and one icon for river access for filtering water.  We sometimes carried enough water for 2 days just in case because we couldn't reliably tell. 

• If you come from a traditional road touring background, just know that you should cut your average daily road miles in half to get a safe estimate for how much distance you will cover on dirt.  We were aiming for 42 miles a day on average.  We had days we biked anything from 28 miles to 75 miles (which included pavement sections). 

• There is cell phone service for much of the corridor between Cascade and McCall, in Ketchum, and in Stanley.  Everywhere else is fairly off grid.  Crouch and Twin Springs Resort both have publicly available wifi at the various establishments. 

• I used PocketEarth on my iPhone with an external battery to have an offline GPS and imported the GPX files from ACA.  I used it mostly to doublecheck our route and didn't keep it on the whole time to save battery.  This saved our butts a couple times and I highly recommend having a GPS for this tour, as some of the dirt road intersections are unmarked or confusing.  It is also very helpful in finding the various points of interests and hot springs, which are not signed many of the times.  Ryan had a bike computer to be able to follow the cue sheet.  These two combined were the minimum needed for this tour.

• We were told that may folks do this tour clockwise, and I think it's because there may be less total climbing that way.  We did it counterclockwise because the ACA map made it seem like that was the logical way to do it.  Regardless, if you don't like climbing, you are going to hate this route.  

• Parking cars in Cascade and Crouch gave us a multitude of emergency bailout options via the Lohman cutoff and Warm Springs road and I would do it again like that in the future.  Starting in Crouch also made Ketchum, the biggest town with the most amenities, around the halfway point-ish, which made us appreciate it more.

• When in doubt, take less gear if you are used to fully loaded touring.  The climbs are brutal with the extra weight and then factor in food and water for 2 days sometimes and... yea.  I have certain luxuries like a hammock I like to have, but I wore the same clothes the entire time and otherwise didn't carry many extraneous items.  Whatever you do, don't skimp on your repair kit.  Dirt road touring is tough on bikes.  Ryan broke his chain and lost a bolt on his rack.  Luckily we were able to repair both from my repair kit.  We were lucky and zero flats!  There are very few bike shops on the route, so prepare to be fairly self-sufficient.  

• Fire season is here early this year.  Use this resource before your trip if you travel mid to late season to see if a wildfire will affect your route: http://inciweb.nwcg.gov/state/13/. 

• If you go early season, check to make sure all the mountain passes are open here: http://www.wcc.nrcs.usda.gov/snow/. 

Aaaaaanyway, my final words are to just go!  There wasn't a single terrible view or a climb that wasn't worth it.  There wasn't a single ugly river or moment when I regretted this tour.  In fact, I can't wait to come back and finish that little bit of the upper loop I didn't get to do this time... maybe in September, maybe next year, maybe I'll do whole thing again!

Day 9: Four Miles Up Last Summit Towards Cascade To Cascade (And Back To Crouch)

Our last day of riding was the quintessential riding day, with a mix of easy dirt roads and deserted secondary country roads.  My legs felt great on the last climb and we were blessed with a cool cloudy morning.  We hadn't had many clouds at all since our first day of the tour, and these ones managed to stick around until noon!  Near the the summit, we met a family of four from Arizona with traditional ultralightweight bikepacking setups.  Dad, mom, and two daughters aged 14 and 17 were having a blast as experienced mountain bikers with some bikepacking experience.  They were really excited to see us because 8 days into their tour, we were the first bike tourists they had seen!  We stopped and chatted for about 20 minutes to geek out on gear, the route, and our respective mountain biking communities.

Aaaaah clouds!  Grey skies!

Fellow dirt road crazies!

We bid our new friends farewell, finished the climb, and then made the sweet descent into the bucolic farmland leading into Cascade.  With the breeze at our back and blue skies peeking out, we finished strong just in time for a late lunch in Cascade.

It wasn't hard to find our way since we could see the tracks of our friends streaking across the way.

Peering down the last bit of the descent into Cascade.

The road to civilization has a few ups and downs and beautiful views.  Ryan zooms ahead as I take a minute to enjoy the last part of our trip.

Cascade sits on this beautiful ginormous lake.  I was tempted to go for a swim, but my tummy was already grumbling for lunch.  I took a minute to enjoy the view while Ryan made some adjustments to his bike and then we pedaled the last few miles into town.

Lake Cascade in all its glory.

Quaint spot in historic downtown Cascade.  Great pizza, that for some reason all has pineapple on it, and a cute atmosphere.

After stuffing ourselves not *too* full with pizza and a celebratory beer, we decided that Cascade just didn't have enough character for us to stay the night.  We were hankering for a little more time at the Dirty Shame Saloon and make our driving the next day a little shorter by grabbing my car that afternoon and driving back to Crouch where Ryan's car was parked.  My car was still in good shape at the Alpine Lodge and Motel and I thanked Justin and gave him $20 for the trouble of letting me keep it there.  He protested, but I insisted, since I didn't even do him the favor of staying the night.

Then off we went back to Crouch and nabbed a room at the Wander Inn again.  Maggie hadn't quite gotten off her job at the grocery store yet, but I knew she had rooms available from her voicemail.  We decided to grab a six-pack and have a drink on the porch while we waited for her.  She arrived in cheery fashion and checked us in.  The first order of business was to shower all of the stink and grime off and change into blissfully clean clothes.  The second order of business was to head to the Dirty Shame Saloon to celebrate.

Monday night at the Dirty Shame is locals' night.  We passed the time shooting the shit with the locals and enjoying the air conditioning.  My favorite was the older gentleman sitting next to me, a veteran of the navy named Dennis who is never seen without his faithful companion Tobey, a two-year old schnauzer-dachshund mix.  Dennis moved to Crouch in the 1990s with his family, but has been lonely since his wife died 10 years ago.  To him, a good day is when he gets to wake up and see Tobey, and that's all he really needs now.  The whole town loves Tobey... in fact, Tuesdays at the Dirty Shame are known as Tobey Tuesdays, because everyone comes to see Tobey and play with him, give him ice chips, or slip him bits of chicken wings.

A few travel notes for bike tourists:

• There is a ton of camping along Lake Cascade which are fee areas maintained by the state.  This would be a nice alternative to staying in town if you are passing through Cascade.  

Day 8: Nine Miles After Crouch Towards Cascade To 4 Miles Up Last Summit Before Cascade

Being back on dirt roads was great... what was not so great was all of the RVs rolling out of their campsites because it was Sunday and time for them to go home.  RV after RV kicked up dust onto us, and while they were respectful of our space, the dust was pretty annoying.  It wasn't until we turned onto the winding road away from the river to our next summit that we finally got some peace and quiet.  We dominated the major climbs of the day and made it back down to the north fork of the Payette river again by 1:30 pm.  This day was supposed to be the hottest day of this heat wave, so we planned to take a 5 hour siesta at the river to wait it out.  We lazed, jumped in the river, I read an entire short story on my Kindle for iPhone in my hammock, played with the dog that came to visit us several times (aka Wolf Dog), and terrorized (accidentally) a little kangaroo mouse.

Wolf Dog comes to inspect our little shady corner.

Chilling in the river.  No hot springs for me on this 110 degree day.

The relaxation zone.

This little guy kept jumping all over the place with his hilariously large feet and long tail... until I went to take a picture, when he tried to play dead to fool me.

At last, the sun started to go down and provide us enough shade to make biking tolerable by about 6:30 pm, and so we started up the very last major climb of the trip.  This road began as the sandiest cruddiest road we had encountered so far, with 4 inches of sand built up at the bottom.  After a while, it got a little more rideable, but we had to be careful lest we wipe out.  On the way up, I saw what I thought was a dead fawn on the road... until it bolted and hopped in an adorably wobbly newborn kind of way down the hill.  The fawn nearly scared me to death and I almost fell off my bike!  We weren't sure of our camping prospects on this climb, so we stopped earlier than expected because we found a great campsite 4 miles before the summit.

Last night of camping!

Go big or go home... or rather, finish the whiskey so we don't have to carry it up the rest of the climb!

A few travel notes for bike tourists:

• Fourth of July and the weeks preceding it are nuts in Crouch and the areas beyond towards Cascade.  Beware tons of RVs and dust.  Sunglasses and something to cover your nose and mouth will be appreciated!  Or try to avoid this area on the weekend...

Day 7: Thatcher Creek Campground To 9 Miles Past Crouch Towards Cascade

I woke up randomly right around sunrise, maybe because of the whiskey, maybe because I had to pee, but I peeked my eyes open to the most amazing sunrise!  This day of riding was personally my hardest day of riding even though it was mostly downhill on pavement.  Mentally, I just don't do as well on pavement, and the days were slowly growing hotter.  I think it hit 105 degrees, which felt even hotter as the pavement reflected the heat back onto us.  The sun was relentless and since we were on the road, there were no trees for shade at all.


Quick picture, and then I fell back asleep for another hour.

I decided I needed a late morning brain break, so we stopped at the Kirkham hot spring, which ended up being my favorite hot spring of the entire trip.  Nestled on the south fork of the Payette river, this hot spring features over half a dozen pools of varying temperatures, cascading waterfalls of hot spring water, and cold river eddies deep enough to dive into.  We jumped back and forth between hot and cold, then headed to a shaded picnic table for lunch before moving on.

Views of the hot springs and river from above.  Despite all the people, it didn't feel crowded.

Taking a hot spring "shower."

Because we hadn't timed our hot springs detour very well, we ended up biking through the hottest part of the day.  The wind was cruelly hot, so that even when it whooshed by us, it was not in the least bit refreshing.  The downhill was basically negated by a hot headwind so we had to work a lot harder than expected, and both of us were suffering.  About 5 miles from Crouch around 3:45 pm, Ryan finally found some shade.  He collapsed into it to take a rest.  At this point, I could see the finish line, complete with air conditioning and a cold beer.  I decided to keep going and we would meet at the Dirty Shame Saloon.  If Ryan didn't show up by 7 pm, I could bribe someone for a ride to look for him.  I crushed the last 5 miles solo and the first cold beer I drank tasted like unicorn tears.

Happiest sight of my life.

Abut 45 minutes later, Ryan rolled in, having made a stop at the gas station outside of town to chug a cold soda.  We took our time at the Dirty Shame, chatted with a few folks at the bar about our trip, and then headed over to the grocery store to get provisions for the night.  We would bike as far as light would let us out of town, a bit out of necessity since it was the weekend and campsites would be at a premium, and also to get some climbing out of the way.  Every single patch of campground, established or otherwise, was occupied for miles out of town, until we happened upon a site that looked big enough to share.  The occupants weren't there, but their camp chairs and other provisions were out.  We decided to raid their spot and ask for forgiveness later, setting up camp out of the way and as compactly as possible.

Local elk... NOM.  We biked by this ranch and had to chuckle at the sign that warned folks not to hunt the "tame elk" that I presume they had at the ranch.

Cozy spot next to the river.  Thankfully, our neighbors didn't get back until after we had gone to sleep and didn't seem to mind that we had invaded their site.

A few travel notes for bike tourists:

• Weekends and especially the Fourth of July are a shit show in Crouch, so be prepared for extra traffic, even on dirt roads, and full campsites.  Luckily most folks are pretty nice so you can always ask to invade someone else's spot and I'm sure most would happily oblige.

Day 6: Galena Lodge To Thatcher Creek Campground

We woke to a cold crisp morning... much to my surprise, my panniers and frame bag were covered in frost!  It was hard to get warmed up and I kept all my layers on, including hat and gloves, for as long as possible.  We amused ourselves during breakfast by attempting to compose songs about poop set to the tune of popular music.  Not going to win any awards with our compositions, but after nearly a week on the road together, things had gotten silly.

I started the day with my arm warmers on despite the fact we were going to be climbing.  The cool air quickly gave way to the sun and we warmed up quickly.  We also made it to the summit in good time because we ended up taking the road.  Ryan claimed it was because we missed the turnoff, but he also wasn't super motivated to go back and find it.  I was fine because it was too early for traffic and I do like descending on pavement for the sheer speed sometimes. 


Frost!  Glad to have my hat and gloves.

Obligatory summit headstand.

Photogenic flowers and views of the road below us.

We went screaming down the other side so fast that I had to stop and put my arm warmers back on because the wind was so cold!  This is one of the descents that you can hit pretty fast speeds on a fully loaded touring bike because of the extra weight.  I relished the wind in my hair and easy rolling that only pavement can provide.  Even though I love dirt, I can appreciate this about road touring.


Pavement isn't too bad when its this empty and with this view.

After a while, the road was wearing on me mentally.  I tend to zone out on pavement and the miles blur by.  On dirt, my brain has to stay engaged because I have to stay aware of sand traps and ruts. The miles go by more slowly which allows me to enjoy the scenery.  The road is more quiet so wildlife is more abundant.  Ryan owed me a favor for the pavement miles so we flipped back to the dirt road for a couple hours before getting into the town of Stanley.  This last section of dirt before Stanley was some of my favorite because it felt like cross country mountain biking on easy singletrack, with lots up quick up and downs and winding around a ridge until the trail dumped us at the Salmon river.

Once we got back on the dirt road, we saw countless herds of pronghorns.

We saw a bunch of fisherman out here... one guy was bringing his days' haul of salmon in and we admired his fish.

Parked outside the saloon in Stanley... time for happy hour until its bearable to ride again.  Our bartender had a lucky day winning $600 in the video slot machine game.

We took our time eating a late lunch and getting more provisions.  We also had a decision to make... would we try to do the entire loop or would we cut the trip short?  We were pretty much on our target of 42 miles a day average because of the time we had made up on the road, but Ryan was getting travel weary with the heat, climbs, and dirt.  Although I really wanted to do the full loop, this was already an amazing bike tour, and I didn't want Ryan to get to the end of it hating life.  So I told him we would go with his gut instinct for what he wanted to the rest of the tour to be.  We settled on taking the Lohman cutoff (more pavement...sigh... but at least downhill-ish) back to Crouch, but then biking the dirt roads back up to Crouch where my car was parked, so we could end on a high note for me. 

Since it was Friday night and a big concert was going to happen in Stanley on Saturday, we knew we had to get a bit away from town before we would find decent camping.  We ended up biking about 15 miles before we got to the small but picturesque Thatcher Creek campground.  For the first time on this trip, the mosquitos were pretty bad, but we amused ourselves by making a game of killing them, drinking some whiskey we had picked up in Stanley, and waxing philosophic about life.  Ryan had the best dinner of whiskey, sunflower seeds, kale, and dried cranberries... I think he is ready for his new life in Los Angeles.

Fun skeeter killin' times as the sun sets.

A lil bit o' Black Velvet helps make the mosquitos more bearable... right?

  

A few travel notes for bike tourists:

• The first 3 or 4 campsites on the way out of town were chock full of RVs.  Also note that not all campgrounds have water pumps or water sources, so we researched which ones did have water while we had some cell phone service in Stanley.  Thatcher Creek campground is just far enough out there that we had good luck getting a spot.  It is a tiny campground with 5 sites and a water pump.  There was one RV here and a dad and his two kiddos pulled in after us.

Day 5: Four-ish miles Before Dollarhide Summit To Galena Lodge

We got an early start in the morning and were rewarded with lots of shade, cooler temperatures, good road conditions, and rested legs.  Having pedaled so easy the day before, we zoomed up the rest of the summit like Olympians.  Okay, maybe not like Olympians, but we felt great after having such a cruddy climb the day before.  The road conditions were amazing on the other side and we zoomed down the other side.

It's a good summit when I have enough energy for a summit headstand.

I was zooming along blissfully down, I just had to stop to snap this perfect moment of Ryan biking through this meadow of yellow wildflowers.  The air up here was crisp and fragrant with the wildflowers at their peak.  This picture doesn't even begin to capture how amazing this part of the descent was.

It was an easy pedal from here into Ketchum, the largest town on our route.  We planned to spend half a day here to get supplies, hit up the bike shop for some things Ryan needed, hit up the microbrewery, and otherwise relax a bit after four days of remote dirt roads.  Our first order of business was a burger and beer.  With the help of Yelp, we found the locals' favorite Grumpy's, the best kind of dive joint. 

Not far from Ketchum, we passed by some more road side hot springs, but the promise of civilization squashed any desire to stop and soak.

Bike-friendly Ketchum does bike lanes right...

The Schooner is 32 oz of sweet sweet beer at Grumpy's.  They have a good selection of craft beers and really solid burgers.  That's about all they serve.  The owner was there this particular day manning the grill, and his witty banter and gregarious personality filled up the whole place.

Afterwards, we meandered across the street the to bike shop so Ryan could grab a few powerlinks in case his aging chain broke again as well as a mini bike tool, since his tool didn't make it into his panniers.  Then it was off to the grocery store.  After having spent days perusing the limited shelves of tiny general stores, I was overwhelmed by the selection here.  Ketchum also caters to a large influx of tourists, so the shelves were jammed full of all the fancy things.  We might have gone a bit overboard here stocking up for the next leg of our trip.  It was still blazing hot out when we finished, so we filled our waters in the restrooms at the grocery store, and then headed over to the Sawtooth Brewery, the only craft brewery on our route..



Downtown Ketchum reminds me what early tourist town Bend must have felt like before the population ballooned to its current 90,000 people.  I could almost maybe live here.

 

Tasting tray to fuel the evening ride... my favorite was a lemongrass ginger wit!  The knowledgable bartender said he was glad to hear it since he grated all the ginger for that batch by hand.

We were finally ready to get on the road to start the climb up the Galena summit around 4 pm, but it was still pretty darn hot out.  After biking just a few miles out of town, we stopped by the ranger station for a bathroom break, a shade break, and to top off water.  I wandered inside to take advantage of the air conditioning and ended up chatting with one of the rangers.  He told me that they let bike tourists park there all the time and that he always recommends that people take the road instead of the trail up to the Galena summit.  Take his recommendation with a grain of salt.  The road up to the Galena summit is very well traveled by cars and trailers and extremely exposed.  I could tell that Ryan, who at heart is a road tourist, wanted some time on the pavement.  I, however, am not a fan of riding on highways, and prefer the road less traveled.  We came to a compromise, we would ride the road for a bit, then flip to the trail, and decide if we would prefer to flip back to the road a bit later should the trail be too gnarly.


A more detailed map of this area is available for free at the ranger station.

After the road, this doubletrack was the stuff my dirt road dreams are made of, if a bit gravelly.

First views of the Sawtooths.

Shade and snack spot off the dirt track.

Bici-glamour shot.

Even though I was loving the dirt track, I could tell Ryan was struggling a bit mentally with it.  After a while, it had cooled down enough and traffic had slowed down enough that I was willing to compromise and hit the pavement again.  Even though it was not my ideal situation, Ryan had been a trooper so far and complained very little, despite the fact his traditional road touring setup made the dirt a lot harder to handle.

We had to stop here, of course.

We were promised mountain goats, but none were to be seen.  So sad.  I relished the shade instead and mourned my lack of goat viewing.

As the sun went down, the riding conditions on the road improved.  There was barely any traffic and shade *finally* started appearing in patches.  Our goal was to make it to the Galena Lodge at least to get as much of the climbing out of the way as possible.  At long last, we pulled in after 9 pm to the Galena Lodge.  Although it was closed, we were able to chat with one of the employees who pointed us to a great little camping spot in the meadow next to the stream behind the lodge and also hook us up with water. 

Perfect little campsite behind Galena Lodge.

  

A few travel notes for bike tourists:

• Ketchum is the biggest town on this route and has 3 bike shops and all the amenities that you could want.  It would make a great rest day spot for folks needing a break.

• If you are a dirt road lover like myself, stick to the trail from the ranger station to Galena Lodge.  It offers solitude, shade, and the same amazing views.  If you need to make up a bit of time on your route, this is a great place to do it.  The shoulder is wide, so even though there is a lot of traffic, it's a safe enough road.

• The Galena Lodge is only open from 9 am - 4 pm, but there are usually employees around after and they are more than willing to provide access to water.  The meadow behind the lodge is a great camping spot, with some small campfire spots, and you can use the port-a-potties behind the lodge as well.  This was our highest elevation camping site at over 7000 feet and it got pretty cold... cold enough to wear my hat and gloves!  We got frost overnight so be prepared for all types of weather even in the summer.

• The employee who we spoke with at the Galena Lodge said that the Old Toll road from the Galena Lodge to the summit often has fallen trees over the trail which results in hike-a-bike over them.  He had just cleared them the day before for a mountain bike race, but be prepared for that possibility most other times of the year.  He also said he never took the route down the other side of the summit, so there's a high likelihood of fallen trees on that side, too.